The Gospels and Other Fiction, part 2

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‘The gospels were written as history. Their writers did not make things up.’

History, as koseighty has reminded us, is not littered with angels, devils, demons, spirits, apparitions, miracles, voices from the sky and resurrected corpses. Real history was being written at the same time as the gospels, by Josephus and Suetonius for example, who do not include the supernatural but do reference their sources, something the gospels never manage.

And of course the gospel writers did make things up. They invented numerous stories for Jesus to make it appear he is fulfilling prophecy (even when that ‘prophecy’ wasn’t prophecy to begin with.) This included making up ‘history’; Herod’s Massacre of the Innocents (a rewrite of a fiction about the infant Moses), the crucifixion eclipse, the rending of the temple curtain and more. These are all symbolic events. They didn’t really happen. Jesus’ own resurrection can safely be added to the list. It’s ironic that those who defend the gospel authors against the charge they made stuff up are the same who invent stories themselves: Mark and Luke knew each other? Mark proof-read Luke’s first draft? There were people who would fact check the gospels and point out any errors? But the original Christians wouldn’t do such a thing. Except they did.

‘There are no Inconsistencies, contradictions and inaccuracies in and between the gospels, but if there are, these are irrelevant. It’s the bigger picture that counts.’

Jesus is different in all four gospels. Despite Matthew and Luke’s plagiarising of Mark, they alter him to reflect the Jesus they believe in. John’s Jesus is so far removed from Mark’s that he’s a different character altogether. The inconsistencies do matter: did Jesus perform signs and wonders or not? Was he crucified on Thursday or Friday? Was it Peter, John or Mary who was first to see him resurrected? Did he hang around for one day or for 40? These conflicting details tell us that the creators of the Jesus story were more than happy to alter it when it suited their purposes. This is not how history is written. It is how propaganda is created. The ‘bigger picture’ is, in any case, made up of these smaller details. They work collectively and cumulatively to create the bigger picture. If we can’t rely on their being accurate how can we be sure the bigger picture is? When the gospel writers are unreliable in the smaller details, how can we be certain they’ve got the bigger picture right, given they’re all copying it from the same source, Mark, and giving it their own spin?

‘There is corroborating evidence of the gospels’ accounts’.

There is? Where? Just because there is some evidence that Nazareth existed doesn’t mean Jesus performed miracles, any more than Dunsinane castle’s existence proves Macbeth murdered King Duncan (he didn’t). Just because Pilate was a real historical figure doesn’t mean he crucified Jesus, any more than the existence of King’s Cross Station means Harry Potter catches his train there. And these, surely, are merely the small details. There is no corroboration at all for the bigger picture. Mention of the followers of Chrestus in Suetonius confirms at best that there were Christians in Rome at the time of Claudius, but no-one is disputing that. At worst, for the apologist, this curious reference has nothing whatever to do with Jesus. Later references to incidents from his story, by the much vaunted Church Fathers, are derived from the gospels and are therefore dependent on them. As such, they don’t constitute independent corroboration.

‘Everything Jesus prophesies or predicts in the gospels will come to pass, then sceptics will see that everything in the Jesus story is true.’

This one is from a commenter on Don’s blog. (I only went there by accident, honest.) The problem with this one is that everything Jesus is made to promise should already have come true, two thousand years ago. The Son of Man should have appeared in the sky with the heavenly host to usher in God’s Kingdom on Earth, while sending most of mankind to the fiery pit or outer darkness or some other damn place. Both he and Paul claimed that this would happen within their and their followers’ lifetimes. The trouble with Christianity is it is always winter and never Christmas. Its fulfilment God’s – God’s Kingdom on Earth, life after death, the final judgement – is always going to be at some indeterminate time in the future, a time and fulfilment that never quite arrives. It never will; part of ‘the big picture’ we can be confident we will never see.

More to come (unlike Jesus). 

‘

80 thoughts on “The Gospels and Other Fiction, part 2”

  1. Who in Hades is the abject moron who asserted this garbage on Don’s blog?

    Assuming this twit was raised a Christian at the knee then this level of indoctrination should be considered child abuse.

    Neil, you have a ‘nose’ for these people that would give a bloodhound pause!
    😀

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  2. If I wasn’t indoctrinated into this nonsense as a child, I should never have believed it in 1 million years! That could be the only way this nonsense could be propagated.

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  3. I’m not a history buff, but if one were to read several books by different authors on a particular time in the past, would one find this many inconsistencies?

    Sometimes the bible believers remind me of the folks that swallow whole the stories a certain past president spins …

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  4. Neil: History… is not littered with angels, devils, demons, spirits, apparitions, miracles, voices from the sky and resurrected corpses.

    How do you know?

    There are many oral histories that include many of these things. There are even stories of witches in English and American histories. Were these ALL histerical superstition? There are stories from Guinea West Africa of demonic activity that a missionary friend who served there will tell you had their source in actual events. (Actual events are history.) The same can be said of Hatti and New Orleans where slaves from Guinea were taken.

    Strange things happen. Supernatural things happen. Literally happen. Only your redisposition to call these “superstitious” places them in the category on non-historic. For many they are as real as the death of Lincoln by assassination.

    Your belief that there are no angels, demons, etc. makes them impossible FOR YOU. For others it is different.

    Neil Josephus.

    Have you read Josephus? He continually references the supernatural and miracles. He treats the exodus as if it were a historic event. He writes of many events you would consider superstitious as historic events. He includers people who are also included in the book of Acts such as the death of Agrippa. He mentions John the Baptist in a fairly long passage. Yes, he supplies sources for many of these. And when he does not, such as for the exodus, he provides information not found in the Bible, so there must have been other sources.

    Neil The inconsistencies do matter.

    They matter because they show that the reports were not made in collusion. These are reports made by many different people simply telling it as they saw it. Every event with multiple eyewitnesses differ – and we expect them to differ. That does not mean that one is right and another is wrong; these inconsistencies only tell us that they are telling what they saw and experienced.

    Ironically, you would claim collusion if they all agreed in detail. Right?

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    • If I’m predisposed not to believe in supernatural entities then so are the vast majority of historians who never use them to explain historical events. Belief in the supernatural is certainly a factor in, for example, the witch trials of the 17th century, and historians certainly take beliefs into account when considering causes and motives. But this is not the same as crediting the things believed in as in any way real. You don’t seem to understand this.

      Likewise, stories about the supernatural are not ‘histories’. They are folk tales, worked up, usually, over long periods of time. As such they are completely unreliable as accounts of real events.

      No wonder you fall so readily for the Bible’s make-believe.

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      • Neil You don’t seem to understand this.

        I do understand this. That is what made the witch trials so pernicious. There was a hysteria that took over and people were accused as witches who were not. But just as there are witches today, some of whom engage in supernaturally motivated activities, there were witches then.

        Neil Likewise, folk tales about the supernatural are not ‘histories’.

        That is what you believe, but you do not know. History was told and kept orally by people from early times through some tribes today using poetry, songs, rituals, and pictorial depictions. The totem poles of the Indian tribes of the Pacific Northwest are examples, but there are many. Those are not the same as modern historiography, but they conveyed history. (Modern historiography is as prone to bias and “folk tales” as any orally conveyed history. Just read about WWII from a Japanese perspective and compare with the western story. History is often told by the winners and bears the marks of their perspective. )

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      • As for your second point: tales and artefacts reflecting the supernatural do not mean the supernatural exists.

        Provide one concrete example that it does, one which cannot be explained as an expression of the human imagination. Your voodoo worshippers don’t qualify, any more than those who have visions of Mary. Show us the supernatural existing independent of the human imagination as you could for the sun or Joe Biden.

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      • I think you could go out on the streets of any big city in America and see for yourself demonic activity. Take a walk through a homeless camp.

        Even though there are many simply unfortunate people, there are also people filled with hate, doing violence, committing murders, raping women, hearing voices that incite them to evil and acting in many cases like the demoniac in the tombs.

        Some of this is mental illness, but not all. Some is pure evil. Or go to New Orleans and spend some time in the occult culture. (My pastor was saved out of that culture and has firsthand knowledge. Try and tell him that it is not demonic.) It is not good.

        Or maybe just watch Richard Dawkins on one of his tirades. Is there any good in any of that?

        All of that in different degrees is the result of demonic influence.

        It has real world consequences, Neil.

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      • So this is your evidence of demonic activity? Appalling behavior by human beings? There is no evidence this is because of the influence of supernatural beings.

        I asked you for evidence of supernatural entities independent of the human imagination. Take the humans out of your suggested scenario and there are no free floating creatures left hanging around that any person or scientific instrument could detect. There’d be nothing there.

        Now put the humans back in again and the bad behavior would start up again. What’s the controlling variable in both situations? Human beings, from whence come all sorts of behavior and fantasy figures.

        This, Don, is just more piffle from you.

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      • Neil Take the humans out of this scenario and there are no free floating creatures left hanging around that any person or scientific instrument could detect.

        Of course. No scientific instrument can detect any supernatural entity. That is hardly a surprise. That is what the “super” in supernatural means. But that still leaves the question: Where does all this bad behavior come from? And why would you even call it “bad”? That’s a moral judgmental in a cosmos that has no moral fabric. What gives you the right to do that? It is evolution at work, and evolution is cruel.

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      • We’ve explained to you where human behavior comes from: it’s human behavior, influenced by a variety of conditions. If you want to believe invisible super-powered creatures that can’t be detected in any way are responsible that’s up to you, but please stop pushing such drivel here.

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      • Aah, the hoary old chestnut that those who are free of superstition have no basis for their morality. I’m not going to argue with you as I’ve addressed this tired cliche more than once (https://rejectingjesus.com/2014/01/05/christians-favourite-delusions-15-the-bible-is-the-ultimate-standard-for-morality/ & https://rejectingjesus.com/2017/11/26/can-you-be-good-without-god/) and you’re once again off topic.

        Let’s say though, for the sake of argument, that you’re right (oh for an hysterical emoji to add here) it doesn’t mean that human behavior of any sort is controlled by demons or invisible super-beings. You’re really ‘bad’ at argument, logic and even worse at supplying evidence.

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      • Don:
        “there are also people filled with hate, doing violence, committing murders, raping women, hearing voices that incite them to evil and acting in many cases like the demoniac in the tombs.
        Some of this is mental illness, but not all. Some is pure evil.”

        How can YOU tell the difference?

        Don:
        “go and walk through a homeless camp in any of our big cities in America if you want to see demonic activity firsthand.”

        How can YOU tell the difference?

        Don:
        “I am not arguing with you about your night terrors. I am arguing that demons and their activity is real.”

        How can YOU tell the difference?

        Don:
        “There is mental illness, yes. There is drug induced mindlessness, yes. But there is also murder, rape, violence, hate, and evil. That is not humans being human. That is at best depravity and demon influence of that.”

        How can YOU tell the difference?

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      • I offer the word of those who experienced demon worship and demonic activity in Guinea West Africa AND of those who experienced the same in the voodoo community of New Orleans. Whether it fits your idea of the world or not, it is real.

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      • Like I told Neil, go and walk through a homeless camp in any of our big cities in America if you want to see demonic activity firsthand.

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      • Listen to what I say. Homelessness does not equal demonic. Many are simply unfortunate. (I give to appropriate institutions that address the needs of these people.) Many are mentally ill. Many are drugged out. But that does not explain the rape, murder, violence, and evil that also finds a home in the camps. That is demonic.

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      • Don:
        “ rape, murder, violence, and evil that also finds a home in the camps. That is demonic.”

        So, are you saying these crimes are always demonic in nature?
        Rape is always demonic?
        Violence is always demonic?
        Or are you using your xtian decoding ring to determine this?

        You are making claims that you have no evidence for…as always!

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      • I do have something of a decoding ring, if you will. And that is what you can’t understand. So, talking about these things is like talking about the color of flowers to someone who has never seen. That decoding r8ing is the Spirit of God that inhabits every believer. It is not that every believer is sensitive to the Spirit to the degree they can discern demonic influence; they may just get a crawly feeling up their back, so to speak. But many are discerning.

        So, in the general sense, yes, every act of violence, rape, murder etc. is a product to the nature of man operated on by Satan. But in particular, SOME things are obviously demonic influenced, and many believers can sense that clearly. One component in demonic activity is often an overt anti-God tone or a putting of oneself in the position of God by the perpetrator: “I am doing this as a minister of God, so shut up” sort of thing. That is demonic.

        And that can happen even when the perpetrator is licensed minister or a ordained priest. God never does those things. God does not rape children. But demonic influence is openly seen in the lawless environment of many homeless camps. And it is just as often seen when someone is under the influence of drugs and out of one’s mind. Satan and the demons have a field day when all the boundaries of civilization are destroyed.

        That is why rape and every atrocity is unleashed in war. The people in power take on the role of gods and act out of their own lust and the influence of demons to go beyond anything that civilization allows. It is not just human beings behaving badly. Even you know that.

        And I say they take on the role of gods because God does have authority over life and death. We live and die according to God’s time. And sometimes we suffer death because of our crimes, according to the authority he has given to the civil authorities. But only God has that ultimate authority.

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      • He probably saw someone wearing a shirt like this:

        …and assumed the worst.

        X-ians…always looking for the boogeyman under the bed and ain’t figured out it’s them yet.

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      • The comments are weird with images. You can’t just post an image. You have to post a link to the image on the web and the comment system will automatically insert the image in the post.

        So, an image has to live on the internet and you give the link.

        You can use a service like https://postimages.org to upload an image to the web and get a link to post.

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      • Don:
        I asked for a mechanism for discerning (detecting), demons…
        You’ve now offered:

        1. “That decoding r8ing is the Spirit of God that inhabits every believer”
        2. “they may just get a crawly feeling up their back, so to speak.”
        3. “One component in demonic activity is often an overt anti-God tone or a putting of oneself in the position of God by the perpetrator: “I am doing this as a minister of God, so shut up” sort of thing. That is demonic.“

        That’s it? That’s the course the Vatican offers its exorcists?

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    • Your belief that there are no angels, demons, etc. makes them impossible FOR YOU. For others it is different.

      That’s correct. It’s ESPECIALLY different for individuals who have not been indoctrinated by religious beliefs.

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      • Don:
        “I think there is demonic activity going on around us and miracles as well, but you and most “moderns” choose a Naturalistic explanation, even when there is no Naturalistic explanation.”

        Yes, I always choose a naturalistic explanation…what else is there?
        Oh yeah…”it’s magic!

        1. What is your mechanism to differentiate between mental illness and demonic activity?

        2. Why don’t medical schools have a course in “how to treat patients that have demonic illness vs regular illnesses?”

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    • Don:
      “ Supernatural things happen.”

      No they don’t…you’ve got to prove the supernatural exists before you can make that claim.
      You already said “strange” things happen…what does supernatural mean?

      Don:
      “ There are stories from Guinea West Africa of demonic activity that a missionary friend who served there will tell you had their source in actual events. (Actual events are history.)”
      Why go to West Africa? Hell, the Pentecostal church down the street proudly proclaims that they fight demons all the time.
      What’s your fixation with Africa? The “video evidence” you provided for miracles was also in Africa. I watched it…the preacher with the golden microphone really reminded me of Jesus!

      Don:
      “Your belief that there are no angels, demons, etc. makes them impossible FOR YOU. For others it is different.”

      Evidence that they exist please.

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      • Goyo You already said “strange” things happen…what does supernatural mean?

        It means strange and unexplainable to you.

        Goyo Why go to West Africa?

        Because I happen to know the people who reported this to me, and they are not extreme. I trust them.

        Goyo I watched it

        I did too.

        I think that Africans have not had their minds poisoned against the supernatural by modern Naturalism. I think there is demonic activity going on around us and miracles as well, but you and most “moderns” choose a Naturalistic explanation, even when there is no Naturalistic explanation. They fall back on their belief.

        Evidence? I’ve provided eyewitness testimony and video evidence.

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      • I had two encounters with demons when I was young and very Christian – in my late teens, early twenties. In each there were black menacing figures. They had the form of humans but were featureless with no faces or other features. They felt like pure evil and I KNEW they wanted my complete destruction. In one of the encounters three of these figures put their hands around my throat to strangle me. While I could not feel their hands, I could see them squeezing my throat and (again) I KNEW that if they continued I would die even though their hands weren’t physical in any way. Both times I survived, but barely (I knew!).

        Later in life I learned of night terrors and the demons suddenly had a very real, very natural explanation.

        Night terrors are related to sleep walking and I was a frequent sleep walker from an early age into my teens. These two episodes of night terrors were my last as I outgrew them and never have sleep walked or had the terrors since.

        The episodes were very real to me. I was young and inexperienced and steeped in Christian superstition. I imagine they were/are every bit as real to others throughout time, especially in superstitious cultures (and what cultures aren’t?).

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      • Commenting on my finding out my experiences with demons were really night terrors, Don responded:

        Don: That is one explanation.

        No, Don. It is the only reasonable explanation. And will be until an better, more evidenced explanation comes along. And yes, by evidence I mean it MUST be objective (not subject to someone’s religion, culture or pre-suppositions), repeatable, and reproducible.

        Take a look at Wiki’s entry on night terrors. We know a lot about them including the many physiological effects they have on the body and brain. We know when during the sleep/dream cycle they occur.

        There are also two drugs that have been shown to have some benefit in preventing night terrors. One inhibits serotonin uptake and the other helps metabolize serotonin. Who would have thought that a preventative for demons would be drug therapy rather than prayer?

        What’s your evidence for demons, Don? Oh, that’s right, you don’t have any. All you have is stories about people who believe in them. But then, your whole religion is unevidenced story after unevidenced story. “Once upon a time a Jewish carpenter created the whole Universe. . . ”

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      • Kos No, Don. It is the only reasonable explanation.

        I am not arguing with you about your night terrors. I am arguing that demons and their activity is real.

        Kos I mean it MUST be objective (not subject to someone’s religion, culture or pre-suppositions), repeatable, and reproducible.

        Silly, Kos. We’ve covered this ground before. It is merely your predisposition to Naturalism and the influence of the Enlightenment that leaves with no other answer.

        As I suggested to Neil, take a walk through a homeless camp in any of our big cities. There is mental illness, yes. There is drug induced mindlessness, yes. But there is also murder, rape, violence, hate, and evil. That is not humans being human. That is at best depravity and demon influence of that.

        Do it, and get back to me.

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      • Don: That is at best depravity and demon influence of that.

        Again, Don, you offer nothing but empty, unevidenced assertions. Not good enough.

        You’ve given no reason to even suspect demons exist. The same with anything supernatural.

        Perhaps you’d have better luck on a Hindu blog, or Mormon, or Islam. Somewhere where they already believe in magic and all you have to do is show them your Real Jesus Magic™. I’m sure without a naturalistic bias they’d be lining up for the God train.

        Best of luck with that.

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      • Some are lining up. But there are others who are speaking to them. You have only me. Sorry. But you need to hear.

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      • Don: Some are lining up. But there are others who are speaking to them. You have only me. Sorry. But you need to hear.

        Sorry, Don. Nothing you have ever said, 1- makes any sense at all, and 2- was true in any way. Makes it hard to care what you have to say. Maybe have a word with Jesus and see if he could give you better material.

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      • Oh, wait. I had a third episode. Or rather, it was my first. In college I woke up suddenly. I was out of my bed and standing on my desk chair. I had know idea how I got there but I was scared. My roommate said I screamed him awake, flew out of bed and climb up on the chair screaming, “The fish! The fish!”

        This is more typical of night terrors – people usually don’t remember the dreams that caused the fear.

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      • I asked for a definition of the word “supernatural”…you give me:

        “It means strange and unexplainable to you.”

        No, it means:
        (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

        Do you see that?
        BEYOND SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING!

        That means it is beyond nature…out of nature…not natural.
        NOT DETECTABLE!

        Definitions don’t change according to each person’s understanding of a word.
        You are arguing dishonestly!

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      • The problem with your definition is that you could argue that healing miracles or demonic activity are explained by the laws of nature and will one day be explained by science. But that is really FAITH in the ability of natural laws and the prospect of scientific investigation – in the future.

        Of course, because of your commitment to your worldview, no other option is available. Unexplained things are simply unexplained – at the moment. But are they?

        You live in a severely restricted world. But you do have microwaves and internet TV. And no meaning for your life.

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      • Don:
        “I think that Africans have not had their minds poisoned against the supernatural by modern Naturalism.”

        Really? So because they live in a society that is superstitious, (ignorant of how the world works), they are more acceptable of fables, legends, and myths?

        Also, getting back to the African preacher on your YouTube video…he certainly looks like a modern prosperity gospel preacher from here in the good ol’ USA.

        What is your opinion of his golden microphone?

        Has his mind been poisoned by modern naturalism?

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      • Don:
        “You live in a severely restricted world. But you do have microwaves and internet TV. And no meaning for your life.”

        Project much, Don?

        My world is not restricted by my belief in some god watching and judging me from afar…I want to live in a world where we could be free from religious influence, but we have people like you everywhere ranting about spirits, and demons, and jeeeeesus, and don’t get vaccinated, and don’t wear masks, and democrats are demonic, child-abusing perverts, and watch out for the drag queens!
        Xtians are trying to restrict our lives everyday!

        Meaning for my life?
        You don’t know me…how dare you project your insecurities on me!

        The meaning of our lives is what we make of it.

        Microwaves and internet tv…is that the best you can come up with, old man?
        How about living in a world where I can communicate with someone around the world instantly?
        Where we have CRISPR technology that is used to edit genes within organisms.
        Where we have researchers trying to find a cure for cancer…instead of using your tried and true method of “prayer”.

        Microwave ovens came out in 1971.

        Don:
        Put down your mouse, turn off FOX news and go outside! The world is quickly changing around you and you’re scared.

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      • Goyo The meaning of our lives is what we make of it.

        Quite Existentialist of you. Read where it took them.

        There is nothing wrong with technology, it just doesn’t provide a reason for being. It fills the emptiness with stuff, but in the end it does not satisfy.

        I don ‘t listen to Fox – well I did the other day on a friend’s TV, and it was frightening.

        But you are right, Goyo, I am afraid for you. You are facing a turbulent world on every level. And without any point you can detect. I face the same world, but I understand it is the last stand in the age-old conflict between Satan and God with us as the battlefield. For you it is pointless. For me it is welcome, and I can face it in peace because I know the end of the story.

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      • Don:
        “You are facing a turbulent world on every level. And without any point you can detect.”

        What do you mean, “without any point I can detect?”

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      • I mean it is not going anywhere. It just is. There is no point to history.

        I don’t believe that, and I don’t see that in history. There3 is a direction. Like a story, there is a plot with a conclusion. And according to what the Bible tells us about the future, we are seeing the things that are sign of the conclusion.

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      • Don: There3 is a direction. Like a story, there is a plot with a conclusion. And according to what the Bible tells us about the future, we are seeing the things that are sign of the conclusion.

        And this is why you are so desperate for the Bible “history” to be true. It has to be for your little view of the world to make sense.

        Well, Bible history isn’t. At least not until the Exile. Everything prior is fiction. There was no Garden of Eden, no flood, no tower of Babel, no Abraham, no slavery in Egypt, no exodus, no Moses, no conquest of Canaan, no Joshua. All that, and beyond, is fiction.

        Even the great Billy Bob Craig has started calling Genesis “mytho-history.”

        Sorry, Don, but virtually everything you believe is wrong.

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      • And it sounds like you must have it be so just as much as you think I do, Kos. And interestingly, you think I am something I am not.

        I actually think that the primeval stories of Genesis are allegorical or written as legend from a far earlier oral and stylized history. Just as is the Sumerian story of the flood is. But from the flood on the stories become more and more historical. Abraham, for instance, is not fiction. I’ve done the research. The Abraham story fits so well into the background history that it is highly unlikely that it is fiction.

        Moses is attested to by Egyptian history and implied in archaeological finds in Egypt. Here is a blog I wrote on the subject http://biblicalmusing.blogspot.com/2017/06/a-people-in-search-of-history-pt-4.html .

        There is also an inscription in a temple associated with Amenhotep III in what is now Sudan that mentions the land of the nomads of Yahweh. This is dated to the end of the 15th century. It is a reference to the Israelites in the desert. https://youtu.be/pGEOZ5YI22M That fits perfectly the timeline of the exodus.

        The exodus is also mentioned by Manetho, an Egyptian priest, and quoted by Josephus. There is just too much evidence for there not to have been an exodus, though the story in the Bible may telescope the events.

        I would not go as far as Dr. Craig and call Genesis mytho-history, but archaeology and the history of the period does imply the basis is historical.

        So, I don’t have to desperately try to make the Bible history. It turns out it is.

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      • Don: The Abraham story fits so well into the background history that it is highly unlikely that it is fiction. …

        Moses is attested to by Egyptian history and implied in archaeological finds in Egypt. …

        That fits perfectly the timeline of the exodus.

        I look forward to your upcoming papers being published in reputable archeology, anthropology, or history journals. And your convincing a majority of the experts in those fields.

        Until then I won’t be wasting my time. I’ve wasted too much previously on your supposed scholarship.

        Don: I’ve done the research.

        Oh! The clarion call of Youtube flat earther and anti-vaxxer.

        I’ve seen your research before. I’ve been underwhelmed.

        But good luck with those papers. I’m looking forward to telling everyone, “I knew Don when he was just another lunatic on the internet.”

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      • Archaeology is a pretty fact-based science. So, inscriptions on the walls of temples, the painted murals, the various steles, and ruins are not things that are biased toward Christian or secular argument. But I would avoid it, if I were you, it still might have some unwelcome influence.

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      • Don:
        “There is nothing wrong with technology, it just doesn’t provide a reason for being.”

        I’m using this definition of technology:

        “technology, the application of scientific knowledge to the practical aims of human life”

        I posted about medicine, specifically about cancer treatments. You understood “stuff”.

        Have you heard anything about “smallpox” recently? Do you know anyone who has died from it?

        From Wikipedia:
        “Smallpox is estimated to have killed up to 300 million people in the 20th century, and around 500 million people in the last 100 years of its existence.”

        That’s the technology I’m talking about…we didn’t pray that shit away, we used science to understand about vaccines, then, somehow convinced the rest of the world to participate, and now the disease has been ERADICATED!
        We don’t even have to vaccinate against it anymore.
        See that Don?…YOU would say that the disease is caused by DEMONS…and what is the cure for DEMONS?

        Who knows?

        Like

      • You’re a little crazy, Goyo. I think God gave us the intelligence to deal with issues that affect us in the natural world AND he made a natural world that is understandable. Perfect match, right? You do see monkeys creating vaccines, do you? I wonder why?

        The problem is not science, it is our willingness to live by the principles God gave us, like love your neighbor as you love yourself. If we only did that almost all the ills we experience like hunger and famine and lack medical care around the world – which are not demon caused – would be taken care of.

        (I have a friend who served as a doctor in east Africa for 30 years to provide medical care to those who had none. He built hospitals and trained Africans in medicine. That is what a Christian does.)

        But we use our brain making bigger TVs. We don’t want to deprive ourselves, right? We – most of us – have all the food we can eat while people starve in some places in the world. But doing spending our brains pampering ourselves deprives others of the basic necessities.

        So, technology is not the problem; we are the problem.

        Like

      • Don:
        “ I face the same world, but I understand it is the last stand in the age-old conflict between Satan and God with us as the battlefield.”

        See how you inject yourself into the fable? “With us as the battlefield”…interesting you choose military conflict as your metaphor…and you say Trumpers are wrong…you’re a Trumper too, Don. You admit your friends watch FOX news…that’s the people you hang out with.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Don:
        “You’re a little crazy, Goyo.”

        Says the person that believes in witches, ghosts, demons, angels, succubi, incubi, an invisible friend, an invisible god…

        Like

      • And right on cue:

        GOP Lawmaker Says Mount Rushmore Is a Demonic Portal

        June 26, 2023 at 1:16 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 247 Comments

        South Dakota state Rep. Joe Donnell (R) said on a radio show that Mount Rushmore was a demonic portal spreading communism across the country.

        (It won’t let me paste the link)

        Ok Don, questions:
        1. Did he look at Mt. Rushmore and get “creepy feelings down his back?”
        2. Did the holy spirit tell him it’s demonic?
        3. Is Mt. Rushmore “putting itself in the position of god?”

        I’m trying to apply your mechanism to his claim…it’s not working.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Thanks for posting it Kos!
        Don…why am I crazy?
        He says he researched it just like you research everything…therefore it’s true, right?
        He’s a xtian, just like you, right?
        That means he has the Holy Spirit just like you to tell him what’s true, correct?
        He says it’s Masonic and demonic…that’s double evil, right?
        He reads the Bible just like you do, Don.
        He’s your brother in christ!

        Liked by 1 person

      • I think you are paranoid about everything Christian, and you cannot discern between what is crazy and what is not. That is not surprising, however. I expect it. But you don’t take the word of Christians who think it is crazy. But I suppose that is not surprising either. How would you know?

        Bottom line, this whole thing about demons and Mt. Rush more is nutsy.

        Like

      • Don: Bottom line, this whole thing about demons and Mt. Rush more is nutsy.

        If the demons are going to get from the Hell Dimension to the Earth Dimension and back again, they’re going to need a portal. That’s just science. And what better place to put it than South Dakota?

        It makes perfect sense to me.

        Liked by 1 person

      • That’s great, Koseighty!

        Of course it’s science…and, as Don already explained, hell and apparently heaven are located in the
        “Fourth Dimension”, written about by that great apologist Steven Hawking.

        I’m glad we have someone that can explain the connections between reality and the spirit world.

        BTW I forgot to mention my avatar is a “Tesseract”, the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

        See, it exists Don.

        Like

      • I just find it hilarious that days after Don presents his very reasonable proposal that Heaven exists in a fourth dimension of space he declares someone else’s proposal of a demon portal as “nutsy.”

        Wackadoodle pot meet the nutsy kettle.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Justb a slight correction. I don’t know if Hawking would think of his imaginary time multiverse as space. If so it is not the space of this universe.

        Nevertheless, I only used Hawking to show that a fourth dimension is not a wacky concept. I did not mean to imply that the spiritual dimension WAS Hawking’s larger universe within which is encompassed this universe. But it is so hard for you all to wrap your minds around the concept of a spiritual dimension that some comparison seemed in order.

        Like

      • Oh, that’s so much more plausible. I don’t know about the other guys but I’m convinced; there’s definitely another, spiritual realm/dimension. It’s right next to the one where all the versions of Spider-man live.

        Liked by 2 people

      • I thought you’d like it. But seriously, this can’t be a new idea for you. You’ve had some acquaintance with Christian theology before.

        Like

      • Here’s Don insulting us by saying “he never meant the 4th dimension is a “spiritual” dimension:

        “ Nevertheless, I only used Hawking to show that a fourth dimension is not a wacky concept. I did not mean to imply that the spiritual dimension WAS Hawking’s larger universe within which is encompassed this universe. But it is so hard for you all to wrap your minds around the concept of a spiritual dimension that some comparison seemed in order.”

        Here’s Don contradicting himself:

        May 27, on the post “Where’s Jesus?”, he said:

        “ If we limit ourselves to only that which science can demonstrate or propose on the basis of known laws and observations (theoretical physics), this mother universe which is not bounded by time seems a fairly good description of the spiritual dimension we call heaven.”

        Stop trying to use science to explain the unexplainable.

        Liked by 1 person

  6. “Hey, Siri, what mental illnesses can make people aggressive?”

    https://www.buoyhealth.com/learn/aggression

    Golly gee. Looks like no demons are needed to make people aggressive. Just the right mental conditions caused by genetics, injury, or other very physical conditions acting on our brains and nervous system.

    Once again, reality has evidence. Don has his feelings.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply ↓

    • Can you imagine living your life with the fear/apprehension that some great, spiritual realm with demons and gods is swirling about you, influencing your every step..”was that a noise I heard, or a demon trying to get me?”

      Life is hard enough, without adding some extra reality that only exists in your mind.

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply ↓

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