There seems to be some renewed discussion online about whether Jesus existed. Let me tell you without fear of contradiction that the Jesus we know today most certainly did not. This is because the Jesus of the gospels is a literary creation. He is a legend, or, if you like, a myth. It’s possible gospel Jesus is based on a real individual. It’s possible too he was a remarkable, charismatic individual, considered by some to be the Messiah.
It’s possible because there were such individuals who made their mark around the time gospel Jesus supposedly lived. He might be of their number. But if he were, why did those who wrote about him decades after the founding of the cult that bears his name (or at least the title bestowed on him) base his story on the legends of older, revered figures, also likely to have been fictional? Why is so much of Jesus’ story a rewrite of the events of that other great Jewish hero, Moses? Compare the circumstances of their births, their mission to lead their people out of bondage, their sojourn in the wilderness, their control of the elements and so on (more parallels here). Why is so much else in the Jesus story constructed around unconnected narratives from Jewish scripture?
Was it because the real person contrived to include these events in his life? Was it God beavering away in the background, making sure Jesus fulfilled prophecies, while mirroring Moses supposed activities? Or was it because those constructing Jesus’ fictional life used Moses and other bits of scripture as the template for writing that life? (Apply Occam’s razor to arrive at the correct answer). And having done so, where does this leave the real Jesus, if there was one? Mired, as Schweitzer discovered over a hundred years ago, in an accretion of metaphor, allegory and magic.
It’s as if a biography of JFK were to be based entirely on the legends of King Arthur, with each episode a rewrite of a story about Camelot and the Knights of the Round Table. There would be the claim too that the Arthurian legends on which this work was based existed only to pre-empt or foreshadow the lives of the Kennedys. Of what historical value would such an account be? None whatsoever. It would not be unreasonable for a reader many years in the future to conclude that the JFK of such a biography had never actually existed. (There would of course be ample evidence outside this silly book that he did; there is not the same evidence for Jesus).
We might also look at Jesus’ lineage. Not those ridiculously conflicting genealogies at the start of Matthew and Luke’s gospels, but all the gods, supernatural beings and miracle men who preceded him. Did any of them exist? Did Baal, Apollo or Zeus? Did Sobek, Dionysus or Mithras? Osiris, Demeter or Romulus and Remus? The archangel Michael, Melchizedek, the cherubim and seraphim? Did the hundreds if not thousand of deities worshipped before Jesus really exist? People were convinced they did, sometimes believing such beings could assume human form and descend among us.* But in reality, none of them did; they neither existed nor, consequently, did they appear here on Earth. But apparently we must accept that Jesus, with his highly symbolic name and mirroring other, older miracle men, not only existed but walked the Earth as a manifestation of God himself.
Then there are all those literally incredible stories about him: the means of his birth, his walking on water while turning it into wine, his raising of the dead, his healing of the diseased and blind, his ability to ride two asses at the same time, the resurrection of his two day old corpse, his post-mortem ability to materialise in locked rooms, his beaming up into the sky… to name only a few. These are the characteristics, not of any other historical figure, but of a character in a fantasy. Each and every pericope in the gospels is not a record of real events but a metaphor, an allegory, of who early cultists believed their heavenly Messiah to be and what they imagined he’d accomplished.
He may have existed, of course, this real Jesus, but we will never know, nor will we ever know anything about him. He need never have existed as far as the gospels are concerned; they are interested only in his legend. Similarly, Paul and his Christ; Paul knows nothing of an Earthly Jesus and has even less interest in him. The writer of Hebrews views Jesus as a heavenly high priest not remotely connected with the gospel legends yet to be created. The spaced-out writer of Revelation and his vengeful archangel Jesus likewise. Jesus is whatever his followers want to make of him, including the bleeding heart of Catholicism and the good buddy of today’s evangelicals. Any real Jesus is superfluous. He might as well not have existed.
*See Ehrman: How Jesus Became God, chapter 1
rejectingjesus, 
Why base your Messiah on an historical individual whom could be traced?
Far better to ask: What are the characteristics I/We could base a Messiah figure upon and then, retrofit / insert him into an historical landscape.
Jesus, or whatever name one chooses to refer to ‘him’, is a literary construct from his sandelled feet to the top of his flowing blonde hair, black hair, olive skin, white skin blue eyes green eyes, etc etc and no matter what Ehrman and his ilk will try to tell us there is no evidence of this character as a genuine human being. Nothing.
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I sometimes think of who the “real” Yeshua was and think: “Gee, when I was crucified all my followers were Torah-observant Jews!” That won’t be the case when he “returns”! You know, 2,000 more years from now!
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The Second Coming™! Always just around the corner. Every generation certain that theirs is the one. Even our very own visiting apologist “knows” it’s close. He can feel it in his bones. Making him just as much a false prophet as Jesus, Paul, and John.
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True Christians™ could care less about their Jesus’s “history.” Their selfish goal of “forever life” is far more important that any facts or evidence about their so-called “savior.”
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Couldn’t care less …
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I think they could care less. They just aren’t applying themselves.
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HA! True enough.
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The Real Messiah™ would’ve shown up in history. Ascending the dividic throne, gathering the 12(-ish) tribes of Israel from the four corners of the earth, throwing off Israel’s oppressors, conquering the whole world, the whole world going to Jerusalem to learn and live the Law of Moses. (Imagine 8 billion people today all desperately trying to get to Jerusalem 2 or 3 times a year as required!¡!)
Of course the proto Jesus Helen Christ didn’t do any of that. What to do? Invent a “second coming” – happening any day now! – at which he’ll do all the promised Messiah stuff.
So what did he do if he didn’t do all the Messiah stuff? Easy. We’ll just reimagine some of the Hebrew Bible stories and slap a Jesus sticker on them! Jesus! What a guy!
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I think when it comes to the subject of Jesus and his “Messiah ship“, I think we really have to consider some of the Hebrew and Jewish sources. According to most Jews, Rabbinic scholars, etc., Jesus doesn’t fulfill ANY of the requirements or the characteristics of the Messiah.
The Messiah must be a male descendent of the root of Jesse, i.e., King David through his father. This is not negotiable. Jesus can’t be if God is his father. Most importantly, he will be a human being; not divine at all. One of the reasons we know that Jesus did not declare himself to be God or to be divine as described in the gospel of John is that that would’ve been blasphemous and he would’ve been stoned to death on the spot.
This is not even the half of it. Jesus doesn’t fulfill any of the required characteristics of the Messiah, which is the primary reason why Jews don’t believe he was the Messiah.
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Exactly! And to paraphrase Life of Brian.
“They made it up as they went along.”
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As a fundamentalist, one of my points of pride was that we didn’t water down the word of God. The Bible said it, I believe it, that settles it. The Adam and Eve, the flood, the Tower of Babel, Jesus walking on water – it all happened as described.
So I find the latest “it’s metaphorical” movement hilarious. They want to be at least semi-credible on historicity, so they admit that some of their Big Book o Stories is myth-ish. Billy Bob Craig calls the mythic parts “mytho-history.” Anonymous Don calls them “real myths” (winner: The Apology Awards: Most Contradictory Term Trying To Pass as Scholarly).
These people are desperately trying to have it both ways. 1- They admit it is a form of mythology because it obviously doesn’t reflect reality, and 2- They still want it to somehow reflect reality.
The worldwide flood of Noah, then become a myth based on are really real local flood. Which then just becomes silly. God has Noah build a boat so he and his family and animals can survive an upcoming local flood. When God could just have said to Noah, “Yeah, I’m going to need you to gather your family and animals and move out of the valley and up onto the butte to live.” The whole point of the story is lost if you make it a local flood. But in the eyes of these revisionists, they’re saving the story from itself.
Let’s take Adam and Eve. Billy Bob Craig “saves” this story by setting it 750 thousand to 1 million years ago. Our heroes, Adam and Eve, are a real couple, members of the species Homo heidelbergensis.
This made sense when Craig was rewriting the Bible to fit a scientific understanding, 10-ish years ago. Homo heidelbergensis was considered the last common ancestor of modern humans, Neanderthals, and Denisovans. Craig, via his re-write, grants a couple of Homo heidelbergensis souls. These souls could now propagate to all the humans known to have interbred with modern man.
Billy Bob can pat himself on the back for being so fucking clever! Well done, Billy Bob!
But today, it’s thought that Homo heidelbergensis is not an ancestor of modern man or Denisovans. Just of Neanderthals. That means that the magical souls God gifted Homo heidelbergensis could only propagate to those modern humans which interbred with Neanderthals. Leaving modern humans from the Americas, most of Africa, and most of Asia soulless! Only Europeans are dependably souled in this model.
Billy Bob, wanting to make his Adam and Eve very scientific, ended up making his God very racist instead. Better luck next time Billy Bob!
When apologists have to admit that some of their Big Book of Stories is myth, they open up the possibility that it all is.
Fantasy is a genre of speculative fiction that involves supernatural or magical elements, often including completely imaginary realms and creatures. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy )
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The worldwide flood of Noah, then become a myth based on are really real local flood.
Wow. Okay, that seems to have been mangled as I edited for “clarity.” Much fail! Bad editor! I think it was supposed to be something like:
The worldwide flood of Noah then becomes a myth based on a really real local flood.
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Don here again.
Those OT people are what we call types. It is a kind of prophecy. But what it does is demonstrate that such a person is what Israel needed. Jesus was the antitype.
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Little Sargon (circa 2300 BCE) was born to a temple priestess of Ishtar. She couldn’t reveal her pregnancy or keep the child. So she sealed a basket with tar, put the child in it, and set it adrift in the Euphrates.
The basket and child were found by a gardener for the king of Kish and Sargon was raised in the royal house. And that Sargon would go on to become Sargon the Great, founder of the Akkadian Empire, the first great empire in human history.
This story is very true. We know it is very true because it was “a type” for Moses (circa 1200 BCE) who really lived and started his life in much the same way.
It certainly isn’t a case of a later civilization stealing an earlier’s myth. That’s crazy talk!
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Ishtar
Inanna is the ancient Mesopotamian goddess of war, love, and sex. She is also associated with political power, divine law, sensuality, and procreation. Originally worshipped in Sumer, she was known by the Akkadians, Babylonians, and Assyrians as Ishtar. Her primary title is “the Queen of Heaven”. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna )
I want to share with you, the rejectingjesus community, a very special experience I had recently.
After much preparation through fasting, thought, and meditation, I retired to my closet (it’s a nice walk-in job) and presented myself to YahwehJesusGhost in prayer. I asked them the question that was weighing most heavily on my soul, “What’s the deal with the Sargon/Moses stories overlap?”
And behold! Casper – the friendliest member of the trinity – came upon me and made known to me The Real Mythic Truth™ of this epic Type™! And I am pleased to share this Truth™ with you now.
Yes! The story of baby Sargon is True™! It actually happened. It was orchestrated by YahwehJesusGhost to prophesy of God’s chosen prophet Moses and his chosen people the CanaaniteHebrewIsraelites.
These two stories – Sargon and Moses – show that YahwehJesusGhost is Real® and doesn’t really care about anybody but his Chosen People®.
To pull off this amazing Type of Moses, YahwehJesusGhost themself took the form of Ishtar and for thousands of years revealed themself in the Temple of Ishtar until the perfect vessel was found. YahwehJesusGhost themself impregnated the priestess who would give birth to Sargon. They instructed the priestess in the creation of the tarred basket and the proper time and place to discard the infant in the river.
After that, YahwehJesusGhost put off is Ishtar persona. But would occasionally appear as Asherah in the Jerusalem temple. It felt good to be The Queen of Heaven again, even if it was in the Canaanite pantheon this time. Eventually, the Judahite priests would evict her from the temple and burn her tree. But her tree lives on to this day in the Judahite menorah and most of them don’t even know it.
We can’t blame YahwehJesusGhost for wanting to be there at the birth of civilization – in Sumer, Akkad, Babylonia, and Assyria. And those stupid Canaanites wouldn’t turn into something useful for thousands of years. Why not wait it out somewhere civilized?!? And sometimes a god just wants to feel pretty. Not all the time. But sometimes. Get your hair done. Let your feminine side out for a bit. Just sometimes.
Anyway, that’s what God revealed to me. And God can’t lie, so you know it’s True™.
To all the gods, goddesses, and nonbinary deities out there, Happy Pride!
To Ishatar, girl you look fabulous! The hair, the crown, the wings, everything, the whole look. Fabulous! And the talons! My Goddess! the talons! Girl, you can scratch my back anytime! Seriously, call me!
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Don, if you can’t see how the trick was done – if you refuse to see – then that isn’t our fault. Please desist from asserting that the stories in the Bible are unique: they’re not. Stop telling us they’re a form of prophecy: they’re not. Stop insisting God lies behind the repetition of the same old stories in different guises: he doesn’t. Stop dressing up your ignorance in quasi-intellectual theories like typology: it fools no-one except perhaps yourself.
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Don,
By way of suggestion…
I’ve always struggled with Word Press sites. Signing in, liking, commenting, posting pictures have always been a struggle. I usually was able to find a way to make it work.
But since coming back recently, I find it absolutely impossible to like or comment on a Word Press site. BUT I have found that everything seems to work if you go to wordpress.com and use their Reader to view, like and comment.
It might be a solution to whatever problem you may be having when trying to post under your account (with your name and image).
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