Moral corruption and abuse are the inevitable destinations of religious sects. And they are all sects, regardless of their facade of respectability.
I recently watched Disciples: The Cult of T. B. Joshua, a series of programmes made by the BBC, about the Synagogue Church Of All Nations, led by the late ‘Daddy’ Joshua in Nigeria. You can watch the programmes on the BBC iPlayer where available and on YouTube elsewhere. When not preaching Jesus in the church’s massive auditorium, ‘Man of God’ Joshua was systematically and callously abusing, degrading and raping the vulnerable young women he had lured into serving the church.
Then today, I read of the sexual abuse of children, both historical and recent, by church leaders in a sect operating in Canada and the US known as The Truth. The abuse of some young boys and girls went on for years, leaving victims psychologically scarred and the perpetrators unpunished.
The Church worldwide has a serious, significant problem with sexual abuse that it consistently fails to address. There’s also the widescale abuse perpetrated in and by the Roman Catholic, Southern Baptist and Anglican sects. It is usually left to journalists and secular authorities to take responsibility for rooting out and exposing the abuse. The Church itself covers up, obfuscates and makes excuses, the chief of which is that the sects in question, the leaders in question, are an aberration and not ‘real’ Christians at all. (No kidding. But then who is?)
Individual Believers will say – and there will be some who will say it in response to this post – that it doesn’t happen in their nice little church (you sure?) and dismiss abuse as something that happens only in misguided cults. The truth is that the Church hands power to charismatic, manipulative men who, provided they preach the true gospel (whatever that is), are elevated above secular law and, lacking in empathy, regard themselves as beyond moral constraint. They see themselves as answerable only to God, because the Bible says so, and he has anointed them with both power and authority.
It happens time and again in churches, sects and Christian cults everywhere. It is the surest sign that Christianity does not work and is, despite the honeyed words of its apologists, positively evil.
rejectingjesus, 
and he has anointed them with both power and authority.
No, “he” hasn’t. The CHURCH (made up of humans!) has “anointed” its leaders in the belief that they are “special.” Instances like what you write about are (according to faithful churchgoers) “anomalies.” (Just ask Don.)
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Oh absolutely. I was reflecting the grandiose claims of many church leaders. All religion and all aspects within it are indeed man-made (I use ‘man’ purposely.)
Don has decided not to make a comment on the post. Strange, when he has no answer he doesn’t say anything. He lacks the honesty to concede a point.
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It’s an old complaint.
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What is? The immorality of a significant number of church ministers or your inability to concede a point?
If the former, how does it being ‘old’ invalidate it? Doesn’t it rather highlight the Church’s long-term inability to deal with the corruption within its ranks?
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The problem has been there since Paul wrote 1st Corinthians.
The problems has been there for everybody since forever. It is just unremarkable for the general population – teachers, Boy Scout leaders, bosses, etc. until it becomes extreme. It is remarkable and needs to be delt with in the church and it should be at any level.
In our city a well-known paster of the largest church in town was accused of inappropriately touching some of the women on his staff. When the elders became aware of it, they first counseled the man and finally fired him. As they should have done.
So, we are aware of it. I’d like to say we deal with it in a biblical way and remove leaders from their positions. But that does not always happen. A powerful leader can get away with things others can’t. Just as powerful school faculty get away with it and bosses, etc.
But those are the exception and not the rule both in schools and the church. Thousands of church leaders do nothing to break the trust they have with the Lord and their congregations. It is just not front-page news.
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Your defence boils down to these three points:
‘Churches are no different from the Boy Scouts and businesses’. Shouldn’t they be, though? It’s Christians after all who lecture us atheists about having no basis for our morality. You may even have done so yourself. Churches, and in particular church leaders, should exemplify a morality far loftier than the average person’s. Instead many are considerably worse.
‘Church leadership has had these kinds of problems since the very start’. Kind of puts paid to Paul’s assertion that Christians are ‘new creatures’, imbued with the Holy Spirit, doesn’t it. You’d think Paul would’ve thought, ‘this new scheme of mine isn’t really working, not with the way I have to keep chastising the communities I’ve founded.’ But no, he presses blindly on.
‘It’s not as widespread as the media makes us think’. It is when it shouldn’t be happening at all. Nonetheless, I’m sure the victims of sexual abuse within the Church are consoled by your assurance.
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From the start Paul warned the Ephesian church that there would be wolves (Acts 20:29) and fakers. Christians’ usually accepting nature as new creatures allows bad actors and fakers to creep in. People who live according to the appetites of the flesh and have not been changed in their spirts.
These are people who really don’t believe and have not become new creatures in Christ.
I make no assurances except that it will continue to happen as the world moves toward darkness. I speak only this warning: be on your guard, the world finds the church a hunting ground. But God is able to keep you.
The problem in the church is not as great as you make it out to be, however. We are aware of the evil around us and the evil that so easily creeps in to the church.
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Praise be to the great prophet, Don Camp!
‘The church is full of fakes corrupted by sin, though there’s not as many as you might think. Others outside the church, specially bitchy gays, are just as bad if not worse. So, erm… be on your guard against erm… against religious platitudes and irrational arguments.’
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I have been thinking about the whole discussion we’ve had over the several years, Neil. I think we are framing it wrong, and this issue may be at the crux.
We have often framed the issue as church versus you or Christianity versus you or religion versus no religion. (I think that last way of framing it reveals the problem best.) And that is what introduces the disconnect between us.
I don’t think of the problem as religion versus no religion primarily because religion is not what I am defending or espousing. “Religion” sweeps up all kinds of junk that is not God’s idea of religion at all. But it all gets lumped together as if it were religion or Christianity of “church”. But it is not God’s idea of religion or Christianity or church.
So, when you are critical of the junk, I agree. It is junk. It doesn’t belong in religion or Christianity or church. And I think virtually all Christian who see the church from God’s point of view would agree.
God’s idea of religion/Christianity/church is moral and interpersonal and social health in every way. It is putting others before myself. It is not destructive. That all is summarized as righteousness. The opposite is sin. Righteousness heals, sin destroys.
So yes, destructive behavior is found among the community of people who are the church. It is not what the church is about. It is an aberration. When the community of people begin to harbor or ignore sin, the community should be held accountable – by the community. When it doesn’t, it participates in the destructive behavior.
In my personal experience over sixty years is that the community that is the church or Christianity has not harbored those who engage in destructive behavior a.k.a sin. It exposes them. (Many sermons are directed to exposing sin.) It offers a way to health. It is not perfect, of course, but the community does not intend to harbor destruction, quite the opposite.
Outside the community, I find things different. There is no absolute moral standard of what is good and what is destructive. And generally there is no community commitment to doing what is healthy and healing. There are laws, of course, but those are much influenced by what are the popular ideas of the moment. That is why slavery in America and England was approved for many years, That is why divorce and abortion is approved today when it was not approved just a few years ago. The individual is the popular idea of the moment, not the good of the community.
The issue turns on what I perceive as good for me versus what God declares is good for me.
So, my gay friend engages in destructive behavior not because he is gay. He does so because he chooses HIS ideas about what is good and healthy above what God says is good and healthy. But his gay community does him no favors and his totally dysfunctional family did him no good either. It tends to encourage that “me first” idea. And it demonstrates by counter example how right God is about what is good.
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@DON
As almost every Christian I have ever interacted with believes the only truly important aspect of Christianity is the resurrection, I wonder if all this back and forth and endless merry go round could be brought up short very quickly if you, Don would simply provide evidence to demonstrate the veracity of the claim that the character Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead.
Would you do this for us?
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Sure. But I have before. Maybe you missed it.
I am the evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. Yup. ME.
I am a follower of Jesus – and a believer in the resurrection – because he rose from the dead. There is no other reason.
If he had n0t risen from the dead, the preaching that immediately within weeks followed would not have happened.
The community of men and women that began to take shape would not have done so.
The good news of Jesus would not have been good news.
Paul’s preaching would have been pointless, as he himself said. Indeed, what did he have to preach if Jesus had not risen from the dead. His whole message was founded upon that.
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Here we go down a very familiar rabbit hole once again. I responded to this claim in 2022 with a repost of ‘If The Resurrection Had Really Happened’: https://rejectingjesus.com/2022/08/09/if-the-resurrection-had-really-happened/
If it had, then according to the bible, a number of other things would also have happened in consequence. That they didn’t tells us the resuurrection didn’t really occur.
Dare I say it? It’s a metaphor.
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Wow! Are you still using that dodge? A metaphor. Really. The people who I know in Africa and Pakistan who spend their lives living as Jesus lived are metaphors? My doctor friend who spent thirty years as a missionary doctor in Kenya is a metaphor? Paul who spent 30+ years of his life and suffered the ill-treatment he did for the sake of people who were radically changed by his message into kind and loving and caring people of faith was a metaphor?
The kingdom of God has grown from hundreds to billions – just as Jesus said.
They gospel continues to spread to the ends of the earth and reach people who have not yet heard the good news – which is what Jesus said must happen before his return.
Billions of people – including myself – are what you term “shiny new people.
But all this is metaphor, so you can dismiss it.
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Nowhere did I say you and other Christians are metaphors. I said the resurrection was.
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While I acknowledge the enthusiasm and conviction you have for your belief and the faith you invest in the tales in the gospels, none of this qualifies as evidence of the resurrection of the character Jesus of Nazareth.
If belief and enthusiasm were all it took then we would all believe that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse (beast).
Therefore, the only takeaway one is left with from your comnent/ personal experience is simply one of faith and not evidence for the resurrection of the Bible character Jesus of Nazareth.
Of course, if you do have evidence then I will stand corrected.
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You actually make my point, Ark. There would be no Islam if not for Muhamed. In the same way, there would be no Christians without Jesus. But there is a slight difference.
The Islamic faith is not based on Muhamed flying to heaven on a winged horse. (Did anyone see this, actually?) Islam is based on the book Muhamed wrote. So, it is based on a historical fact. That fact is Muhamed.
[You might recall that Islam is actually based on the Old Testament and the people who spoke of God in the OT. It is also based on Jesus, whom Muslims believe to have been a prophet of highest degree. ]
The church, however, is based on the resurrection of Jesus and that fact was prominently preached from the first day of the church.
No resurrection, no church, no Christianity, no New Testament.
Ark: one is left with from your comnent/ personal experience is simply one of faith and not evidence for the resurrection of the Bible character Jesus of Nazareth.
Not really. I am not proposing that my personal faith is evidence of the resurrection. I am saying that the experience of those who saw the real physical Jesus after the resurrection and preached that as the foundational truth of the gospel they preached are the evidence. They were the direct product of the resurrection. I am a product of that preaching and consequently indirectly a product of the resurrection.
Real historical events have real effects.
Ideas also can have real effects. The idea of democracy, for example, has had enormous real effects. But when the idea is based on an actual fact, the effects cannot be sustained by the idea if there were no actual event.
That is why the cult of Osiris has not persisted. No fact supported it.
I think you actually believe that; otherwise why attack the fact? If you could prove the fact of the resurrection did not happen the foundation of Christianity would crumble. So, evidence please. Give it your best effort.
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Those who are claimed to have preached a resurrection is not evidence of a ressurection.
It is only a belief
Just as much as those who preach Mohammed had a visit from Gabriel.
There is no evidence only a belief that he was telling the truth.
Maybe he believed he was telling the truth but whether it happened is another matter. There is certainly no evidence it happened any more than there is evidence of the resurrection of the Bible character Jesus of Nazareth.
As with the followers of Mohammed and Islam your Christian faith is based on the fact you believe the tales in the gospel.
You have no evidence of the event itself.
There fore it is more accurate to say no faith/ belief in the tale of the resurrection, no Christianity.
Again, I may be misreading your reply so if you do have any evidence, any at all, please present it.
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You mean like a piece of his flesh you could use to check DNA?
You are being silly.
By this measure you could not prove that Alexander the Great existed or that he was dead, for that matter. Who knows; perhaps he walks the streets of Pella.
Nice try though. But be a little more realistic next time and suggest what you might accept as evidence for the resurrection. My guess is that there is nothing. But surprise me.
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Well, yes, some dna would be very nice.. But we already have it, do we not?
You are familiar with the bread and wine ritual?
Perhaps you have even partaken of it?
In fact I am truly baffled why no scientist has never approached their local Priest and asked for a few samples.
After all, they tested the Shroud of Turin and established this was a fake.
How hard could it be to establish something similar with the flesh and blood of Jesus?
Failing this it seems we have to establish evidence the old fashioned way.
So, putting your asinine comment to one side for a moment, I will, ask once again. Do you have anything to offer by way of evidence?
And just to remind you: your conversion, your religion and religious beliefs, examples of better behavior, the amount of money you donate to charity, the gospels tales or the number of bibles you have on your bookshelf etc are not examples of evidence of the resurrection of the Bible character Jesus of Nazareth.
You’re up… evidence if you please, Don.
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Ark, I will ask one more time. What physical evidence is there for Alexander the Great. Or for Plato? Or for The Roman senator Brutus. Is there DNA? Is there a piece of bone that you can show was part of their body? Are there even pictures of them by people who knew them?
I don’t think so. So how do you know they ever lived?
I will tell you. You know by the effects their lives had on history. That is the evidence. And you know in some cases by the testimony of people who knew them.
And that is the evidence for Jesus. It is just the same. You can go on demanding “evidence” when the evidence is right in front of your nose. If you’ll pardon me, it is silly to demand evidence different from the evidence you accept for other ancient men. And it is disingenuous.
So go and figure out how you know anything true by physical evidence about anyone from the distant past, whether it is the resurrected Jesus or the dead Alexander. Once you figure that out, let me know.
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@Don
Again, we are not discussing whether the character Yeshua Ben Josef, an ittinerant 1st century rabbi existed.
I am asking you to present the evidence to demonstrate the veracity of the claim that Jesus of Nazareth resurrected from the dead.
So, let’s have no more deflection or equivocating, if you have evidence then present it.
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I’ll reply to this more fully over the weekend, probably as a post, but for now I’ll just say I’m sorry your gay friend hasn’t found a supportive community. I’d guess he won’t until he feels the need for it.
I have, and have enjoyed a great deal of support from it as I have from wonderful gay, straight and, yes, Christian friends. None of us is perfect, of course; we are more realistic than that.
I regard myself as very privileged – I’d have said ‘blessed’ when a Christian – to have so many people, including Dennis, my grown-up children and my grandchildren, who are there for me, and I for them. This is how community works, Don, no God required.
Which is just as well.
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Here we go again … “God’s idea of religion/Christianity/church …”. It’s astounding that just because an individual believes in this non-existent being, he also takes on the authority of telling others what this being says and thinks.
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The problem of sin or destructive behavior in the community of believers is not new, but it is increasing. Paul writes this to Timothy:
But understand this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For people will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, savage, opposed to what is good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, loving pleasure rather than loving God. 5 They will maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its power.
Sadly, there is a lot of appearance of religion without the power of it to change lives. Paul says, “avoid people like these.”
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Which should have told whoever wrote Timothy that the regeneration he was preaching didn’t work. It should have told him those who professed Christ were not necessarily indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Should have told him the church was exactly the same as every other flawed human organisation. Should have told him it was no more under God’s control than any other.
It certainly tells us that the author thought the end times were imminent then and there were already signs of it coming, ‘avoid people like these’ being in the present tense.
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Oh no, it worked. It worked so well that people who were not Christians saw these people who were open and accepting and welcoming rather than suspicious to be easy marks and could be used to gain their own selfish ends.
It is the same today.
Paul says to avoid them.
If you think that the community of believers is the same as every other institution, you haven’t spent much time in the church. Nor have you paid attention. These people changed the world. They saved babies who had been left on the street to die of exposure. They still do. The build hospitals and served as healers. They still do. They ran toward the mess and cared for people at the risk of their own lives. (Like the in the Black Plague in England.) They still do. They build orphanages and cared for the orphans. They still do. They shared what they had in disasters. They still do. They built schools. They still do. They give their money and their time and energy to help the homeless.
They do all this today. And in doing it they are examples for others. I am proud to know many of these people personally and to have helped them in their work.
Sorry for the repetition, but your memory needed jogging.
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As do the very many secular charities. If I might paraphrase you, Church giving is neither as common nor as special as you seem to think.
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Historically, the secular giving that is part of our culture is in fact part of our culture because of the virtues it gained from its Christain origin and influence.
Go back in England before the influence of Christianity and compare.
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Tosh. Most modern charities do not owe their existence to Christianity. Many are specifically non-Christian. You have to have it that everything stems from your superstition, don’t you. It doesn’t.
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I did not say that every charity has a direct connection to Christianity.
I said that modern charities owe their existence to a culture of charity that owes its existence to the Christian virtues that were instilled in the culture early on.
But just because a “modern non-Christian” charity dies not specifically claim status as a Christian charity does not mean that it does not include Christians who serve or give toward that charity. Doctors Without Birders is an example.
I would expect that only those charities that were anti-Christian would not have Christians involved.
There are some like that. The Green Crescent is specifically a Muslim charity. I know of no Christians who are involved either as participants or donors.
So,is there a specifically atheist charity? I found one, Foundation Beyond Belief. Though it seems the foundation ceased operation last year due to lack of funding. So, what happened to humanism among atheists?
For those atheists looking for a place to contribute to disaster relief and compassion for the needy, may I suggest World Vision. Or Doctors Without Borders. Or the Red Cross. (Oh dear, the problem would be the “cross” wouldn’t it?) So, what do you do, Neil with all your contributions to compassion and disaster relief? Do you give to the homeless on street corners?
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What rubbish. You shift the goalposts yet again to say that charities employ Christians and this somehow makes them Christian charities. No, it doesn’t.
Then you say you can’t think of any atheist charities other than one that no longer exists. No-one was claimimg there are atheist charities (though there probably are); I referred to non-Christian, i.e. secular, ones. Evidently, you don’t know the difference. I could name many non-Christian, secular charities that operate in the UK but why should I? You are intent on parading your ignorance and I don’t want to be the one to disillusion you.
As for which charities I give to, that has f**k all to do with you. I will tell you though that they are not Christian ones that make their assistance conditional on recipients subjecting themselves to Christian propaganda.
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Neil: You shift the goalposts yet again to say that charities employ Christians. Well probably, but that doesn’t make them Christian charities.
No. the issue is the involvement of Christians in charitable work. That includes both Christian charities and missions work like the hospital in Kijabe, Kenya. and organizations like World Vision but also work we do among the homeless in our cities that is not through an organization.
Neil: I referred to secular ones.
Okay. That is the same for Christians. We work with organizations like Peace Corps and Red Cross and Habitat for Humanity.
Neil” You are intent on parading your ignorance
No. I want to know if Atheist are involved in charitable work in any numbers. I simply do not know what that involvement is, so I ask.
Neil, you are under no obligation to disclose anything about yourself. My goal is to find out if atheists have a concern for people in need and act on that concern in real ways. I know that Christians have had that concern for the two millennia since Jesus sent us out to lift up the fallen, to visit those in prison and to care for the widows and orphans.
Does your philosophy of life look at people as worthy of your concern?
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So, deflecting from the evil within the Church to Christians who do some good to demanding I provide evidence of atheists who also do, is not moving the goalposts?
Try to be honest, please, Don.
Then you’ve the nerve to interrogate me on whether my philosophy of life looks at people as worthy of concern.
You really haven’t a clue.
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@Don
I feel confident to assert there are atheists who are involved in charitable work and atheists who are not.
Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods, your god, Yahweh and every other so far presented for consideration.
The lack of belief is based on the total absence of evidence.
That is it. It has no worldview, no doctrine, no creeds, no holy books, no mantras.
The level of dumbfuck disingenuity paraded by theists like you never ceases to amaze. Your constant pathetic need to treat atheism as some sort of pseudo religion is as dishonest as it is farcical.
And on the subject of dishonesty, I am STILL waiting for you to present evidence of the resurrection of the Bible character Jesus of Nazareth.
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don:
”The problems has been there for everybody since forever. It is just unremarkable for the general population”
Thank you for admitting that xtians are no different than any other people when, as Neil points out, you are supposed to be “new creatures in christ”.
Don:
“So, we are aware of it. I’d like to say we deal with it in a biblical way and remove leaders from their positions. But that does not always happen”
Damn right it doesn’t happen…just look at the numbers Neil posted from the denominations!
And yet the church tries to protect itself…over and over again.
You, and the church you apologize for disgust me!!!
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The church has disgusted you for a long time goyo.
What I do know is that i am not then person I was when I began to follow Jesus. I really am a new creature and I am becoming more like Jesus day by day. I know that is true for others as well. Are we perfect. Of course not. But we are changed and changing.
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don:
”But those are the exception and not the rule”
Bullshit!
You’re already commenting on Bruce gerencer’s blog…read his “black collar crime” posts, if you dare. They’re endless!
Read about the movement of pastors and priests in different denominations to hide them, instead of reporting them to authorities.
As Christopher Hitchens said, “religion poisons everything”!
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Sin poisons everything. It does not matter who you are or what you believe. Religion is simply a place sin can display its ugliness. But so is the workplace, so is the political arena. (Don’t get me started on that) Power corrupts.
So is the internet and its porno sites or chats..
I have a friend who is gay. I’ve listened to his phone calls. They are filled with filth. His and his friends’ attitudes toward others are nothing but hatred.
He himself has been part of the drug scene. His fiancée ODed on fentanyl. He has stolen cars multiple times. There have been times when he has been involved in extreme sexual activities and been in danger of his life with some of his partners.
So, would you say that gays are poisoned by sin? Would you say that politicians are poisoned by sin. Would you say that the guy who steals from his company is poisoned by sin. Would you say that the husband who beats his wife is poisoned by sin.
I would. We all are.
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Don:
”I have a friend who is gay. I’ve listened to his phone calls.”
What? A gay friend? What does the Bible have to say about that?
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 states:
How can a xtian have gay friends, Don? Aren’t you disobeying god?
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Don:
”Sin poisons everything”
Sin: an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
As I don’t accept a divine law, I don’t accept the concept of sin. Your entire diatribe means nothing to me.
Don:
”would you say that gays are poisoned by sin?
I would”
Don:
“my gay friend engages in destructive behavior not because he is gay. He does so because he chooses HIS ideas about what is good and healthy above what God says is good and healthy.”
”destructive behavior”…poisoned by sin”…
What’s you and god’s problem with how consenting adults have sex? What’s the proper sexual position according to god(you)?Is oral sex permitted? Can you look at your partner, or should the lights be out?
So much POISON going on.
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Goyo: As I don’t accept a divine law, I don’t accept the concept of sin. Your entire diatribe means nothing to me.
I didn’t think it would. It is, nevertheless, true.
Sin is a biblical term for whatever is destructive of human beings and the cosmos. So, make up your own term if you like.
Any behavior that is destructive people, and that includes the one who does it, is sin or evil or whatever you decide to call it.
Sex is good. It cements relationships between a husband and wife. Other sex is destructive and by the biblical definition sin.
Don’t look at your partner? Don’t be silly.
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Don:
”God’s idea of religion/Christianity/church is moral and interpersonal and social health in every way. It is putting others before myself. It is not destructive.”
Canaanite’s, Midianites, Ananias, Sapphira would disagree with you.
Don:
” I really am a new creature and I am becoming more like Jesus day by day.”
Do you hate your family yet?
“If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.” Luke 14:26
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Goyo: Do you hate your family yet?
Don’t be silly, Goyo. The God tells us to love and care for our family. BUT it I must choose between doing what God puts in front of me to do, family must take second place. Even if that is the case, and it is for many believers that does not mean we hate our family.
Goyo: Canaanite’s, Midianites, Ananias, Sapphira would disagree with you.
We are moral creatures and live in a moral universe. Destructive behavior must be prevented if there is to be moral order and good for society. Sometimes that included arresting a criminal and putting him or her in jail. (You may not actually believe in that. Modern think seldom agrees.)
If you will look at the facts, the Cannanites and Midianites had so violated the moral order that there was moral chaos. Read about the human sacrifices the Canaanites participated in. They were given time and opportunity to change, but they did not. That REEQUIRED God to act because that behavior if continued would wreck destruction on a wider and wider group of people.
Annanias and Sapphira were also people who would influence others with their destructive behavior and disrespect for God and his moral order. This was at the very beginning of the church and that kind of deception would set a precedent and increase if not publicly and dramatically condemned by God. So, God acted. Notice that this was the one and only time this happened. Perhaps because it was a lesson learned.
Moral chaos destroys people. That is why I have real concern for our American society. Moral chaos is becoming more and more the new normal. It is destroying lives and the social fabric in places like Portland and Seattle. People are literally dying on the street because Portland and Seattle chose a few years ago to ignore the chaos of the drug trade and violent protests and to do nothing about it. They sowed the wind and are reaping the whirlwind. But they are not alone. It is coming for you as well.
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don:
”I am the evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. Yup. ME.”
”I am the evidence that Islam is true!
I am the evidence that Mormonism is true!
I am the evidence that Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism is true!
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You are being silly, Goyo.
The only evidence that is NOT the effects of an event physical evidence, which would be a piece of bone that could be examined for DNA. If that is the criterion, you cannot even prove by evidence that Alexander the Great existed. Sadly no one knows where Alexander is buried. Tomb of Alexander the Great – Wikipedia
As for depictions of Alexander by artists who lived and knew him, sadly we have only a Roman copy of an alleged bust.
But do you doubt Alexander existed? I do not. The reason is the effects of Alexander’s life scattered across the Middle East and Mediterranean world. That includes the political entities that he left to his generals and evolved into the present political landscape of that part of the world.
But that is true of Jesus as well. Except that those “effects” include people who are followers of Jesus and are so because he rose from the dead.
Now if such evidence is insufficient for Jesus and the resurrection and presumably for Alexander, tell me why you believe Alexander existed.
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One can believe that someone called Yeshua Ben Josef, an ittinerant 1st century eschatological rabbi wandered around Galilee and was eventually crucified by the Romans for sedition.
However, I am asking for evidence of the resurrection of the Bible character Jesus of Nazareth.
So, once more, do you any evidence for this character and this event?
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don:
” If you could prove the fact of the resurrection did not happen the foundation of Christianity would crumble. So, evidence please. Give it your best effort.”
That’s not how this works…we don’t have to prove Bigfoot DOESN’T exist…you have to prove it DOES.
You still don’t understand logic…for all your pontificating about evidence, you don’t have anything!
your arguments work for any religion.
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@ Goyo, we don’t have to prove Bigfoot DOESN’T exist…you have to prove it DOES.
Precisely. And I have seen no compelling evidence for Bigfoot. I don’t have to prove bigfoot does not exist. There is evidence for Jesus, however.
1) There is the testimony of eyewitnesses whose lives were changed by their encounter with the resurrected Jesus. Men who died because of that testimony. (effect that followed the fact)
2) There is the evidence of a community of people existing within weeks of the resurrection the only reason for their existence being the personal testimony of many within the community that they had seen him alive. (effect that followed the fact)
3) There is the evidence that those who most wanted the fact to be suppressed tried to do so but failed. (reaction to the fact)
As far as doing history goes, that evidence really is a good as the evidence for Alexander the Great.
I think the truth for you and for Neil and Ark is that the fact of Alexander’s real existence does not impact your lives much. The fact of Jesus’ resurrection, however, does. It is why you try so hard to dismiss it. (As you say, you can’t disprove it.)
The fact of Jesus resurrection turns your whole worldview on its head. If it did not have that kind of effect on the foundational assumptions you have built your life on, why would you be any more interested than if Bigfoot roamed the Northwoods?
But I don’t want to discourage your quest for truth. It is, in fact, the most important question you’ll ever answer.
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You are making some grand assumptions when you state that others are impacted by Jesus’ resurrection. How can a person be impacted by an event that never happened? And “proof” is not necessary to those who don’t believe in something to start with. Duh.
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You regularly write :
“The fact of Jesus resurrection.”
Making such an assertion without providing evidence renders it nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim.
Please provide evidence to demonstrate the veracity of your claim.
Thanks.
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